Which was the last county in England to have indigenous native speakers of a Celtic language? I guess most people would say Cornwall but infact Herefordshire and Shropshire are more certain candidates.
The last speaker of Herefordshire Welsh is said to have died in the parish of Clodock in 1883, although Ffransis Payne maintains that five or six native speakers lived on into the twentieth century in the Golden Valley. In 1878 the statistician E G Ravenstein found that the Shropshire parish of Sychtyn was overwhelmingly Welsh speaking, as was the western half of Llanyblodwel, with substantial numbers also found in Selattyn. Looking at the 1901 Census for the neighbouring Denbighshire parish of Llansilin it is apparent that the great majority of those born in the Shropshire parishes noted above and also in Oswestry itself are listed as Welsh speakers. The Welsh language must have survived well into the twentieth century in these "English" districts.
What I find interesting about this is the complete lack of interest in this survival of the Welsh language in Shropshire and Herefordshire. The topic does not seem to excite those interested in the history of either county. Why on earth is it that such an important part of each county's heritage is ignored? Do local historians in the two counties perhaps have some psychological hang-up about the subject?
What I find interesting about this is the complete lack of interest in this survival of the Welsh language in Shropshire and Herefordshire. The topic does not seem to excite those interested in the history of either county. Why on earth is it that such an important part of each county's heritage is ignored? Do local historians in the two counties perhaps have some psychological hang-up about the subject?
I agree the survival of the Welsh language east of the border is indeed a fascinating subject which recalls the settlement pattern of these islands by the anglo-saxons. It gives creedence to the seperateness of the indentities of the English and Welsh peoples in the marches.
ReplyDeleteRumour has it that Welsh is still spoken in western Shropshire (around Trefonen)by peoples indigenous to the area. Worth investigating ??
I really wish I could find a way of being notified when I get fresh comments. I miss interesting stuff like this. I guess I could go for full moderation but I don't want to do that.
ReplyDeleteBack to the comment .... given the fairly strong position of the language in the parishes on the Welsh side of the border, I guess there has to be a good chance of native born speakers on the Salop side. Certainly worth investigating. It's a puzzle that there's not more interest in these survivals of Celtic speech in England long after Cumbria and Cornwall.
It's a shame that there wasn't a 'language spoken' section on the 1891 Census for the western parishes of Herefordshire and Shropshire. If the Welsh Language was still spoken, be it by the older generation, in Cwmyoy in 1891it is quite possible that there were a few speakers residing on the English side of the border. Returning to the Welsh census is is also regretable that the language section was not added earlier to Welsh censuses which would have given a much clearer picture of the use of Welsh spoken in the eastern counties (Hoff iawn o'r wefan yn enwedig y pytiau ar Gymreictod ac ar hynt yr iaith Gymraeg ym Maesyfed)
ReplyDeleteWHy don't you write to S4C and ask Dai Llanilar (Cefn Gwlad) as I am sure I saw him talk, a few years ago, to an indigenous farming family from across the border who spoke lovely Welsh.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting. I'm sure on a walking trip in the Olchon Vallley last year I overheard a farming family speaking Welsh. I was surprised but considering the isolated location I suppose it's not out of the question that the language is still spoken. The 2001 census shows that 162 people in nearby Crucorny (8.6% of population) speak the language so it's not out of the question that the language is still prominent in South West Hereforshire. I wouldn't be surprised if Welsh is still spoken in places such as Longtown and Clodock - if you walk through the villages it's amazing how many of the houses have Welsh names.
ReplyDeleteThis is a fascinating topic and you are right to say it's a real shame there isn't more academic research to uncover the strength of the language over the border.
Im always pleased to see that the banks in Oswestry offer bilingual services and I know of one nursery in the town where Welsh is taught to the children - my sister in law teaches it there.
Antony
A very interesting post and a subject which certainly merits further investigation.
ReplyDeleteDifyr dros ben!
I'm sure that traditional Herefordshire Welsh is long dead, although the occasional family from off may indeed speak Welsh. One or two individuals born in the detached part of Herefordshire called Ffwthog would have continued to speak Welsh into the 20C. It was transferred to Monmouthshire in 1893 though.
ReplyDeleteShropshire is a different kettle of fish. In 1945 the headmistress of Selattyn village school confirmed that 5 of her 46 pupils were fluent Welsh speakers and there were still Welsh speaking miners working in the Salop colliery of Ifton when it closed in 1968. I'd say there was a good chance that there were still indigenous speakers of Shropshire Welsh living in the county.
By indigenous I mean familes who have been natives of the area for some generations. Of course there will be plenty of folk who have moved, or their parents have moved into the county.
I think it is great there's a nursery teaching Welsh to the children. Given how many parents in England send their children across the border to Welsh medium schools why don't they campaign for bilingual schools in the English Marches?
DeleteReally interesting subject, sorry to come so late to it. I recall hearing Welsh being spoken among the staff in a bakery in Ellsmere in about 1983 when I was holidaying in the area. I also heard it spoken in other rural localities on the English side of the border. It has always stuck with me. Of course the speakers I witnessed could have been Welsh and merely working/visiting on the English side of the border but my impression was that Welsh was still spoken vestigially in that area. I am Cornish by descent and have always taken an interest in such matters since my grandfather told me about our language when I was a boy. Studying and documenting the decline of the Welsh language on the English side of the border, I feel, could offer very interesting insights into the demise of the Cornish language.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting subject and one which extends Colin Lewis' 'Herefordshire, the Welsh Connection' published in 2006. Today I photographed an old plaque (dated 1754), containing an entirely Welsh inscription and on display in St Margaret's Church, near Newton, Herefordshire. The church also contains a printed notice on the duties of church wardens and written in both English and Welsh. Since the diocese transferred from St David's to Hereford in the middle of the 19th century, this notice is likely to be at least 170 years old, but since it was likely that such a notice was mass produced by the Welsh diocese, it does not of itself provide evidence of a welsh-speaking congregation in the 19th century. These images can be found in a wikipedia article on the Golden Valley Herefordshire. Rh Lewis Brecon 26/11/19
ReplyDeleteSorry, plaque date in St Margaret's is 1574 not 1754. Also of interest are two Welsh bibles formerly stored in Rowlestone vicarage and damaged in a fire. They are now stored in the Herefordshire Archives.
ReplyDeleteI find this subject deeply fascinating, on many levels, as an English speaking person from mid Wales, who is deeply interested in the history of the Welsh language. I love the Welsh names of people and places. I am moving from Milton Keynes back to S Wales to be near my grandchildren. I owe it to them to learn Welsh!
ReplyDeleteDeryvas fest da.
ReplyDeleteAs a Cornish speaker, I’d like to add something in answer to why there is so little interest in Welsh in Herefs and Salop. My observation is that based on what it is like to be a Celtic language speaker in a region that English people believe to be English until corrected. Moreover, I would say that English attitudes towards Cornish vary along a continuum from positive support and involvement all the way to antipathy. I suspect the only way that English people become interested in the Cornish language is when Cornish people advocate for it. Where there is a lack of advocacy, there is a lack of interest, and very likely, without a vocal Welsh voice, encouraging English people to take an interest, it’s unlikely to spontaneously start in Salop or Herefs.
Conversely, Cornish speakers show no interest in the parts of West Devon where Cornish was spoken after the Norman Conquest, so not surprisingly, Devonians tend also to show no interest. This is also the case in tip of North Cornwall, where Cornish place names are absent and there are very few Cornish speakers today (post revival).
It would be a nice idea if Welsh, Cornish, and other Celtic language communities or organisations would spread their wings into their hinterlands, encouraging interest and involvement. This would need to be done carefully, but the rewards may make trying worthwhile. I’d very very interested to know what others think.